I understand your point here Silverwolf and have to say it is a very valid point. Just to expand on it though would you mind if I asked that what you are saying in effect is that its not the drugs that are wrong, but the way they can be used, aka abused?

Cadno

PS. I hope you don't mind me asking

_________________
'For nights veil is nothing more than fleeting moment in the eyes of the true seeker'

Well, I really don't have a problem with the drugs themselves, because they are just a byproduct of some plants, and yes the problem I have with drugs are in the manner in which they are used. Of course, this applies to drugs that actually have medical uses.

Drugs such as Hallucinogenics, Hashish, etc. have no medical purpose, and I will unconditionally object too.

I have read in many many older spiritual books that weed was commonly used in divination by the witches in the 15 hundreds (recorded) but they believe that it was used well before then too.
Interesting concept. for those who do, good for you and for those who don't good for you too. for the decision to use or not use is to each individual. Blessed Be

I guess I should just jump right in with my own opinion here. I also want to state that I have not read all the posts following the one that I am quoting. I found something with Delphi's post that I would just like to touch on before I continue reading.

First, I have used MANY MANY different drugs in my dark days. I would also like to say that those many uses WERE the beginning of my spiritual search. I also want to say that I have been clean from drugs for nine years.
I have had many experiences with many different types of drugs, And I know that no body really wants to hear this but my two favorites were Meth and weed. No you need to also remember that I was not a spiritual person then, I classified myself as an atheist. As some of you know, I possess a Extrmely fast mind, I have so many things going through my mind at one time it has caused some serious problems in my life.
Weed however, gave me the ability to concentrate on one thing, or even better nothing. It quieted my mind immensly!!! So as far as its attributes to meditation, I can definitaly see where some could benifit from the use. I was able to reflect on my life, distinguish what needed to change within me, and I could even start to make those changes.

I am in NO way condoning drug use, I have spent a lot of time and effert repairing my life after my drug use, as I did hit ROCK BOTTOM, and hard. I even lost my kids over it for a while. It can if left unabaded ruin lives, the person using as well as those around them.

This is only my experience that I wanted to share, that even though I was not a spiritual person at the time, it did aid me in a type of meditation. I do not use drugs currently and have not used them for nine years and 11 days. I only want to show an experience perspective and NOT a condoning perspective.

I do however, beleive that each person is different, and I am not judging those who do choose to use. But I am very happy to explain to them who use, what I went through and why I no longer use.

Love to All
Sorcia

_________________
I am today, what yesterday made me, and therefore am stronger for tomorrow~Sorcia
Blessed Be
Sorcia Soulscribe

OK So I still smoke and drink upon occasion, I guess you got me, I still do these two drugs, but nothing else I swear.

Love to All
Sorcia

_________________
I am today, what yesterday made me, and therefore am stronger for tomorrow~Sorcia
Blessed Be
Sorcia Soulscribe

Just so that everyone knows, since I have heard this many times now.

"Drugs other than alcohol (e.g., marijuana and cocaine) are involved in about 18% of motor vehicle driver deaths. (Jones et al. 2003)."
http://origin.cdc.gov/ncipc/factsheets/drving.htm
(Yes, I got permission to use this information)
I also want to note that this number does not include any passangers in the vehicle only the driver statistics.

I personally do aggree that Canibus does not kill ANYWHERE near as many as alchohol or even tabacoo, and the above persentage includes ALL other drugs and not just Canibus, so the actual number of deaths from Canibus is even lower. But to say that Canibus has never killed anyone, to me isn't stating an opinion, it is stating a fact, however, that fact is wrong, it has killed people.
What you seem to be quoting is this:
"In all of world history, there has never been a single human death attributed to a health problem caused by marijuana."
http://www.cannabis.com/untoldstory/hemp_9.shtml
(Yes, I got permission for this one also)
It just seems that you are leaving out the phrase "attributed to a health problem"

I just thought that I would put my own 47 cents in, trust me though, I have another dollars worth to come. These little posts are only in direct corolation to things others have said.
I will add my personal thoughts when I finish reading the rest of the posts.

Love to All
Sorcia

_________________
I am today, what yesterday made me, and therefore am stronger for tomorrow~Sorcia
Blessed Be
Sorcia Soulscribe

OK, here is the other dollars worth of cents that I promised everyone.

I have used a lot of drugs in my day, and as I have posted already, I do not currently use, Nine years 11 days and counting. However, I never really took a look at what the drugs were made of, so in this point I am not very knowledgable, so I am going to stick to what I know.

Canibus, comes from a plant
Haroin, comes from a plant
Paote comes from mushrooms (I think) also a plant (or is fungi an animal)
Mushrooms (non native american sense) a plant or animal.
Cocain comes from the coca plant (good enough for chocolet -sp-)
These things are very natural and some highly halucinigenic -sp- but they are all natural. There are a lot of natural items out there that are leathal when injested, these natural products can also be leathal depending upon amount injested, except canibus; that is said to be inpossible to overdose on.

As a spiritual person (now) who looks to nature for its healing properties, if there was something that I had that I needed to use any of the above mentioned naturally occuring "Drugs", I would. However, due to thier leathal possabilities, I would exhaust all other options first.

PCP
Methenphenamines
(there are many names that fall into these two catagories)
Acid
Angel dust (a fav in my time of use)
Black Beauties
Etc.
These are artificially made by the combinations of chemicals (as far as I understand)

These I would have to say, I have never heard of them having any madicinal value, and there for, I would not use.

I am not a person that needs to partake in drug use any more. I can filly understand why those who do use, use. And I can understand why those who dont use, dont.

I am a daughter of Alcoholism
(my mother, my father, and my 1st step father)
I am a daughter of drug abuse
My father, when I was born was addicted to one form of meth or another. 10 years later, he was finally clear of this addiction. He then fell off a roof while working and shattered both of his knees. He had replacement surgery. And went back to work. Two years later, another accident, while saving someone else from going over the roof edge, he was pushed over himself, and disinigrated both bones in the lower part of both leggs. 3 years, 300 hundred screws, 75 rods, and 7 plates, and a lot of physical therepy, he was finally able to walk again. But he was ALWAYS in pain. My father is a BIG man. At the time that this happened he stood 6'5'' and weighed about 290lbs all muscle. After another 3 years of constant pain and non of the perscription medications the doctors tried even touched to pain, his doctor perscribed him canibus. My father had been a meth user, he really wasn't interested in pot, but he did it anyways. One joint ever 6-8 hours as needed for pain, was what the perscription said. And that is what he did, just as the doc ordered. Finally he could walk with out the SEVER pain he had always had. He never once abused it. And after a while he noticed that he didn't have to take it as often either.
Then somewhere along the line, someone decided that it should only be used for cancer patients and his insurance would no longer cover his medication. He said it took nine months for the pain to return to the extreme that it was before the pot, and it came back with a vengance he said. Nine months with no pain releif, and he went to finding his own supplies. A couple years later, he and a friend with a similar story decided to grow thier own. Twice a year now, they drive 18 hours to humbolt county California, to check on and/or harvest thier growth.
It has long since become acceptable for those in sever pain to be prescribed Canimus, but he continues to break the law and grow his own. He says left alone in the wild to grow, the quality is much better, and therefore the need is less.

Now for my 1st step father. He was a meth and pot user. Though it was the meth that killed him. Well technically a masive coranary brought on by extreme overdose killed him. However, I have a different view. I feel that he having lost the will to live, killed himself. He had done meth for over 20 years, he knew how to tell if it was bad stuff or good stuff (good and bad here being relative), after 20 years he knew how much he could take, and how much he couldn't. And he over dosed. I truely feel that after my sister moved out of the house (she was his ENTIRE world) he felt like he no longer had anything to live for (as the parted ways under bad circumstances) and he killed himself. Just my opinion.
My godfather (my step-dads brother) was also a meth user, who after my step dads death, tried to quit. (Unsuccessfully). Until it killed him too. However, I don't feel that he killed himself. My Godfater lost all touch with reality after my stepdad died. The only time he was really here was when he was high on meth. And then it was really only a little intouch with reality. He was so messed up, that he had an ear infection for over a year, and didn't realize it. It ended up eating through his ear canals into his brain, and he was in the hospital for three months uncontious, with a brain infection. Even unconcious, his body went through withdrawls of horrible kinds. But even when he got out of the hospital it didn't take long to be right back on the meth. Finally about three weeks before he died, he had been able to stay clean. He was doing well, was keeping in touch with his sponcer every day. Then one day his sponcer didn't hear from him, and he went to check on him, and he was found dead. (Remember, he wasn't in touch with reality very well). It seems that last October, he had went to bed and forgot to turn on the heater. That may not sound like a very big deal, but when you live in a 16 ft. travel trailor that you have spent the past two years tweeking on, it is a very big deal. Standing 6' tall and weighing 98 lbs, no insulation left in the trailor, and only a sheet to cover with, he froze to death, in non freezing weather.

These are just three different stories that I have from my life. They don't even include my own stories. Yet they are a few of the PERSONAL reason why I don't use anymore.

Again I want to reiderate, that given the healing aspects of some of the natural based substances that are today classified as illegal drugs, I would use them if the need arose. Given the qualities that they have to increase the spirituality side of things, I personally have not need at this time.

I however, feel that as far as the halicinigenics go, I would mainly only use those that are of a natural base, and again only if the need arose.


I think that over all society as a whole does look down upon those who use drugs as a whole. However, I also feel that there is some leniency given to those who use it for spiritual purposes. Where as the use of intoxicants within a spiritual process is more acceptable to say Native Americans or Aberiganies and many others, then it is for Pagans. I think that as far as the social status of such substances.

Now, in my personal opinion, does intoxicants help or hinder practice... I can see perfectly how it would help practice, in some situations.
Intoxicants block our inhabitions. They open us up to guidence from everywhere, more readily than any other aid. I personally beleive that natural intoxicants could very well help and aid spiritual workings. Workings that require us to seek guidence from any source of guidence we choose. When used in moderation, it would definitaly open the mind to except the signals and decifer any "signs" given by our guiders.
However, when used to the point of abuse, all helpful aspects go right out the window, in my personal opinion. It is at this point when I feel that the drugs tend to close the mind, they tend to misread things, cause misunderstandings in the interpretations we come to.


I want to reiderate again that the above statements are mine and mine alone, they are my thoughts, and my opinions. So Delphi, you now have my answer to your original question.

Hope this helps, Sorry it is so long

Love to All
Sorcia

_________________
I am today, what yesterday made me, and therefore am stronger for tomorrow~Sorcia
Blessed Be
Sorcia Soulscribe

Thank you for sharing that, Sorcia, you obviously have a lot of experience on the matter.

I must say i've never heard of weed having the effect of focusing someone's mind, but then we are all unique.

May i ask why you stopped using weed if you found it an aid in meditation?


Metta

_________________
None of the means employed to acquire religious merit have value compared to loving-kindness

_________________
I am today, what yesterday made me, and therefore am stronger for tomorrow~Sorcia
Blessed Be
Sorcia Soulscribe

**deleted by author**

I can understand your point of view Pheonix, but this has been quite an enlightening topic. Thankfully it has been fairly constructive and is the beauty of having such an open forum to discuss it.

Sheesh we have some strong views around here, but I have to admit I am very happy to see those who do or don't (and for those who no longer do) use certain herbs coming out and saying what they feel.

I thankyou all deeply for your additions to this thread, its been great talking about it and I would love to see it discussed further.

Anyone else out there with a view?

Cadno

_________________
'For nights veil is nothing more than fleeting moment in the eyes of the true seeker'

Phoenix You say:

I have not used nor will I ever teach or discuss this topic. Get it out of your system here if you want because once I start class up again it won't happen.

I am glad that you can come to see things with an open mind Nobody is asking you to teach this, Nobody was asking to be taught, All that was said and asked in this *Supposed to be* Discussion was opinions and thoughts on such practices, what they were, how they may hinder or promote your spiritual practice.


I am not saying that if it is your choice to use them .. not to, that's your choice. It is just not my choice or my practice and since the class is what I practice I would prefer to keep it out.

I understand that and respect that. If you are teaching what *YOU* practice I understand that completely. But you have to aknowledge that In Shamanism the use of such Herbs WAS/IS used. The Peace Pipe, The Sweat Lodge, Vision Questing all of it had uses for those herbs.

BTW I haven't read all the posts in this topic and I probably won't.[/color]

I understand why you have chosen to not read the posts in regards to this topic, however should you have read the whole forum you may have found out what people were discussing and thinking, how we were working and where we were coming from. Therefore, coming to the conclusion that it is an interesting and important topic to be discussed on The Practices of Old and New Shamanism. Not All practice this way but to truly learn the way of the Shaman we must look into the History of the Shaman including what herbs and such were used, are still used in some practices today. Not all use these, Its a matter of tradition and personal preference but to discuss it does not hurt and leaves people a little less ignorant.



I also want to say Thank you to Sorcia for your posts, I loved how you put your words, saying what you had to say. I hope that this discussion will continue, Maybe we should start focusing on the uses of such herbs tied to the history of the practice Instead of our own Personal Opinions on whats right or wrong etc..

_________________
*Psychic *Medium *Reiki Master *Theta Healing Practitioner *Blessed Witch *Root Worker

*Let NONE stop you, Or turn you aside!-Aradia



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Thank You Adonis,

I think moving the focus from personal views to the use of such herbs tied to the history of the practice my be a wonderful move, as we are all now aware of the personal views herein. I think a look at the historical views may be a good idea.

Love to All
Sorcia

_________________
I am today, what yesterday made me, and therefore am stronger for tomorrow~Sorcia
Blessed Be
Sorcia Soulscribe

this is where it gets interesting for me, as i would love to know about the historical uses of herbs. it is all nature after all, and it would be nice to know how the peoples of old used it as such, and how they viewed it too.

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With perfect love and perfect trust